Traveling with Thoreau to the top of Ktaadn
ENG 385: Nature Writing, CONNECT Class discussion, Fall 1995

Raven: As for Ktaadn, I was very excited to read this passage as I had the immense honor (and spiritual benefit!) of climbing Mt. Katahdin a year ago. This was after that blueberry raking trip I wrote about the first week of class. Ktaadn itself was amazing. My friend put it best when he told me, as we idly laid around in a grassy spot on the side of Ktaadn, "Raven, this is it. Everything after this is a comedown."

After reading Ktaadn, I am overwhelmed by the trip they took. It really upsets me, that as an adventurer, there is not the space and wild untamed land there was then. But Katahdin, as it is now spelled, is in Baxter State Park, which was declared land that could never be developed, so its beauty remains pretty much intact. There are no paved roads within 15 miles of the peak, no buildings, no nothing, except for a few rickety wooden leantos at the bottom since it is the start of the Appalachian trail. It was thrilling to hear Thoreau talk about the basin on the side of the mountain, since I once trudged up it. And to hear him say his was the third trip to the mountain made me wonder how few humans had ever scaled it like myself, although like I said it's part of the Appalachian Trail, so it's not like you have to pole your way up the falls anymore or anything.

The Penobscot is still a large and neat river (though well polluted by the paper mills, a legacy of the lumbering I guess). But it bothered me that I, in my life, lack the chances of McCauslin to settle wild territory up river somewhere. (But maybe that's bullshit and I could if I looked hard enough, the media definitely makes it seem close to impossible though.)

Anyway, this was wonderful reading. I was excited to find out what happened next, learned a few survival skills, and got to relive the highest (physically and spiritually) moment of my life.

Laurey:
In the Ktaadn passage by Thoreau, a young man is feeling the closeness of nature. He is on a journey up a mountain with some friends of his and he starts to really appreciate nature. The only difference between the passage and WALDEN is that the passage tells about a man getting a sense of what nature is whereas in Walden the author is telling of his own adventure and experience with nature. Thoreau is troubled because he wants to be the first one to find a new aspect of nature, but in the passage it seems that some other human may have already explored it first. He gives indications that he is troubled by referring to mythical beings that were punished for showing the human species things that the gods deemed private and unnecessary to be revealed without one's own encounters. Thoreau questions how many others have come first and what other creatures have already experienced this closeness with nature on the mountain Ktaadn.

I had a similar experience where I felt as if I was the first one to trail a mountain in West Virginia, but I already knew that there had to have been several others who have come before me. I wandered off the trail on purpose with a companion to see what other things we could explore that others may not have had the courage to wander to. Unfortunately, we encountered spiders and a sense of distress because we got lost and it was getting very dark. Luckily, we both had a keen sense of direction and found our way to a dirt road which we followed back to our cabin. It was fun and may have been one of the times I have really appreciated nature.

Andrea
Iit seem Thoreau has some kind of grudge against Nature here, as though he is trying to defeat her by climbing the top of this mountain against her will. Yet at the same time he knows he can't win because he could be cast off the side just as the sparrow is blown around helplessly by the wind. He appears to be arrogant in the assumption that he and his companions are the only men to ever traverse this area before. But he is thrown back into reality when he sees the other man's footprint.

Thoreau must feel he is never good enough to hold nature's respect. He invisions the moose as the ultimate essence of nature yet can never actually see i;, what does that leave us to believe about his view of himself and nature. Though he is forever trying to be a part of raw nature somehow he is missing something and will never quite find what it is.

Nikki:
Actually, I have quite a few "mountaintop" memories, and a sensation that occurs again and again would be wonder. I am always being amazed by nature and its vastness, and its beauty, and its surprises. But it always happens that whenever I try to put these feelings in words, I end up sounding like a program on the discovery channel, or an ad for national geographic. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

I get a rush climbing to the top of a mountain and looking out and down at where I had been, and the path I had climbed. Of course, I've never scaled any huge summits, but that doesn't matter, little mountains are still beautiful. Enough about me, how about Thoreau?

Karen: One significant difference I noticed in the two readings was Thoreau's seemingly lack of confidence in the Ktaadn passages. He seem afraid of the unknown. He seems very unsure of himself and of the nature around him. In the chapters that I read in Walden, I saw a completely different Thoreau. He was in charge of his kingdom. The meadows and woods around Walden were familiar to him, well trodden paths.

Thoreau makes many more references to mythological characters, like he is on a mythological journey to heaven (top of the mountain) in the Ktaadn passages. He feels very alone in Walden as well as Ktaadn. He makes much more noise about it in Ktaadn passages. It raises questions for him about his immortality/mortality.

I have not experienced a similar experience in nature quite so powerful as this adventure. I have had moving experiences but none so earth shaking.

Kimberly:
I found Ktaadn to be a different perspective from Thoreau. As in all of his other works, his stories from Walden and his journal he is so in touch with nature. He sees nature as beautiful and alive. When I was reading Ktaadn it was like he was afraid of things and not so into nature as he usually is. He was unsure of things and himself. The last line definitely describes the unknowing. He writes "Think of our life in nature, daily to be shown matter, to come in contact with it, rocks, trees, wind on our cheeks, the solid earth, the actual world, common sense, contact, contact, Who are we? Where are we?" Here it seems to me that the whole time on this mountain he is not in touch with himself or nature. It is like he is confused about what he is doing. Maybe I just got that feelings but I found it to be a different perspective from Thoreau. I had a difficult time trying to understand what he wanted us to feel from him.

Laurel
Thoreau reveals in his journal, as he did in passages of Walden, his great reverence and admiration for nature. He uses poetic phrasing in his descriptions of the sights he encounters on his climb to the mountain top. He refers to the rocks on the mountain side as being "loosely poised, a mile or more, still edging toward the clouds" and describes a point of his trek as having "entered within the skirts of the cloud". I found it very interesting that after using this poetic phrasing, he refers to the scene at the top of the mountain, saying "It reminded me of the creations of the old epic and dramatic poets". It is almost as if he is unaware of the 'poetry' that he has written into the body of his journal.

Would "experiencing nature" with friends change Thoreau's feelings? It seems to me that he doesn't have a lot of interest in experiencing it with friends. In his line "but soon my companions were lost to my sight behind the mountain ridge in my rear, which seemed ever retreating before me, and I climbed alone..." it is my feeling that Thoreau expected and almost welcomed the fact that his friends fell behind and he was left to take on the mountain alone.

Ever hiked up a mountain? Yeah! Been in a wilderness situation? Yeah! Alone? Yeah! I do enjoy the solitude when I'm in the "wilderness" alone, but I much prefer experiencing it with a friend, preferably with someone who enjoys it as much as I do. I'm not too fond of being referred to as a "tree hugger" because I get excited about nature. I do enjoy having someone along who has not experienced some of the things that I have had the pleasure to witness. There is quite a warm feeling in seeing the light ignite in a friend's eyes when they see a Red Tail swoop down on its prey or hear the grunt of a doe warning her fawns of our presence. I guess part of the joy of watching someone else experience these things for the first time is that it is like being able to look into a mirror of the past and watch my own expression acted out again. Sharing. It's great.

Julie
I like how he bonds with the different aspects of the mountain. Like in the other texts throughout Walden he uses a lot of references to Greek Mythology. I found it interesting that he stated that nature is a type of step mother to humans. After reading this passage did anyone get the image of Cinderella in their thoughts? This is the first time in which nature has almost appeared to be taboo in his writing. Does Thoreau feel like that this mountain should be left alone and restricted to everything but the human race? Or is it that mountain is something so wild and natural, that enjoyment of this experience is almost like a rape of the true essence of nature?

I found the ending to this piece a little hard to understand. Can anyone help me with what type of conclusion he expected the reader to come up with when he stated "Contact, Contact. Who are we? Where are we?" Was this trip up the mountain too natural? This statement almost reminds the reader that we are humans, too much nature is not healthy for some. These last few lines can in some regards be taken almost as an S.O.S. But what does Thoreau want us to be rescued from?

Sue
I love Thoreau's writing about Ktaadn. I think it is interesting that Thoreau questions, taking the voice of the mountain of Ktaadn, Why seek the mountain? I think Thoreau answers this question as he expains what he sees, he seeks; the mountains to be surrounded by mist and clouds that sporadicaly break up to give him a glimpse of hundreds of miles of Maine countryside, the mountains so he can see all the lakes of Maine in one expansive look, the exposed earth, not meadow, or lawn, etc... but pure earth, to walk where other men have not walked, to jump from rock to rock with water churning underneath you, to see a huge rock lodged twenty feet from the ground in the crook of a tree.....

Of Thoreau's writings, I like this one the best. Unlike some of his other writings where he seems to be egotistical and rude to women, Thoreau writes about Ktaadn as though he is just a vessel to deliver the beauty of nature. The details, such as picking blueberries that taste spicer, lakes that look like a shattered mirror, and the place that is not like a meadow, or lawn, but just a place for moose to relax, really creates a picture in the reader's mind. This then, makes me wonder if he knew that others would read this, or did he write in such exquisite detail so he could remember? I think he did it for both reasons.

Christina
Nature is not as kind to thoreau at Ktaadn as it was at Walden. Its mysterious powers now offer him a challenge on a mortal level rather than an exploratory, esoteric,wow this stuff is cool scene.Eating raw pork then going out rock climbing would make anybody feel as if their life was caught in a precarious balance, not knowing what nature will deal him next. Trichinosis or tumbling off a mountain will twart the appetities of any mortal. I like Thoreau's actionpacked approach to nature much better in Ktaaden than his serenity in Walden.

Miles
He seems a Moses character with some duty to climb the mountain, converse with nature and return to inform the masses of what transpired. But he also is afraid of nature; he leaves because the conditions are bad he must also feel out of place because he is human. He is forced to leave the mountain and as he sees the mountain as an entity, a creature capable of possessing and manipulating power, he feels his own situation or at least place as similar to the bird. The bird, therefore, is also forced to do something yield his flightpath to the will of the mountain. Virginity is always looked upon with some delight, and Thoreau certainly would have respected a good piece of land. He could be referring to his own limits of strength, and ability to survive. Or, simply the same limits in nature itself. He could also be referring to those boundaries ceated by the rivers, mountains and woodsof which there are many, varying in size and ranging from the very small (the ridges on the bark of trees) to very large (sea to sea). Even further, although this seems a relatively timebound conceptis the question of land's carrying capacity.

I think he finds it pleasing just to see men in nature. Not that they are controlling chaos, but that they are at least able, unlike the bird, to control their own lives. We all hate to see evidence of others in the wild places we go. It is ruinous to face the truth, when believing we are alone. He may be alluding to the burden of society. It's great to live in nature, at least get out into it but then, what if everybody did it? What if everyone left the city, and packed into the woods to build a cabin? Wouldn't the city merely be moved?

It is as if wild animals only become wild after they are seen by man.

When doing his traversing that is while being involved with the actual combatting the elements, there seems little time to think or reflect. Only in times of calm do we feel the need/have the opportunity to think about other than what is directly in front of us. Priorities change. He may be expressing a breaking of the link with nature. It may also signify a simple disjunction between nature and society.

In Ktaadn Thoreau takes a somewhat different view of nature than Walden. It seems the difference between a visitor and a tenant. In Walden he is living within nature, and in fact sees himself as such; he is a part of it. In Ktaadn he realizes himself as merely a visitor not part of it, in fact, a little at odds with it.

Pam I enjoyed reading Ktaadn. It was refreshing but more importantly it proved that nature can be enjoyed in the company and presence of other humans. The experience varies with different people but you get out of it what you want to get out of it. I believe people allow themselves to experience and feel to the extent or depth they are ready to experience. This writing offered a feeling of fantasy, storybook type scene.

AMANDA
(PREhypertext): There is a conflict in Thoreaus personal feelings about Nature. He wants to overcome Nature the passions, desires, and impulses. The key is control, tame and put Nature to the service of "man". This is his heritage from Enlightnment thinking the Age of Reason. But the poet in Thoreau stands in awe of Nature. This aspect of THoreaus character realizes that the mysteries , laws and actions of Nature contain great knowledge about the existence of "man" and creation.
1. If Thoreau were experiencing nature with friends I imagine he would not be able to achieve the same state of being, the oneness with nature which helps him to gain valuable insights as he does in solitude. 2. Well...I've been to the top of a mountain using the "cityslicker" approach. One such trip was to the top of Mt. Blanc in the Alps via cable car. There was a small peak at the top which we had to approach by foot. It was really tame stuff but some people couldn't even do this because of the vertigo. The icy path made of wood that spiraled around the peak seemed shaky, but I managed to struggle up to the tip.
Another time I hiked from a "scenic area" to high pasture lands with a friend in the Southern Alps. These areas have been home to mountain sheep and goats since ancient times. The pastures appear to be "scooped out" of thin mountain peaks, ending in sharp, jaggard edges which fall off suddenly into the vally thousands of miles below. I was scampering along this strange landscape when suddenly the I felt the presence of something behind me. I barely had time to turn as I saw a huge cloud rushing toward me. This menacing specter engulfed me along with the entire mountain top. I called to my friend but he had disappeared. THe cloud was cold and moist, I could barely see my hand even when holding it close to my face. I felt very disoriented and had to sit down in order to keep from falling. Clouds kept drifitng by occasionaly affording a view of the rocky, cliff edge. I had to wait for what seemed an eternity. I kept calling to my friend worried that he had fallen off the cliff. Finally, he appeared in the swirling mists ...it was a joke ...but I was practically in tears.

POSTHYPERTEXTREADING: Thoreau seems to be less comfortable with nature. His stance is more distant. Perhaps this is because he feels less in control in the hiking environment. The section in Walden where Thoreau feels almost overpowered in his desire to consume the flesh of a wild creature might be seen as a foreshadow of this sense of abandon and lack of control which can be a result of identification with the wildness of nature.
The clues that I beginto notice that THoreau is troubled are the types of metphors he uses in his journal. He speaks about the "skirts of the clouds" on two occasions. When he reaches the summit the clouds have become "hostile ranks". At the end of the Ktaan passage we see that Thoreau is in awe of the bodily experience but also very afraid of the primordial nature of bodies.
The questions that his experience raises are those he asks at the end "Who are we?" and "Where are we?" These existential concerns are related to the "explorations without answers". One example in found in the section on Solitude. There Thoreau says "I have found that no exertion of the legs can bring minds much nearer to one another." The mind can perhaps communicate more easily with nature and cosmic order then the social aspect of mind. Thoreau sees the type of relationship between a person and nature not so much as an observer but as a "merger". The details which he observes offer insight into the questions which resound in the final lines of Ktaadn.
Anthropomorphic illusions in Thoreau are some what different than the other writers we have read so far. THoreau uses this device in a way which is not completely unscientific. One example in Ktaadn is his way of talking about the wind which assists him in moving the clouds. Although we know the clouds don't do this expressly for him we realize that the wind does move clouds as part of their natural function.

Michael Ann
I have been to the top of a mountain in Western Maryland where you can see three states (Maryland, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania). It was absolutely gorgeous. It was fall and the trees were beautiful. You felt like you could see forever. I was not alone, but with friends. I enjoyed experiencing it with others. Someone to share it with.
Responses to "Ktaadn." Why would clouds be hostile? Because they obstruct the view? Where is the goodness of nature, the teacher? Are the tops of the mountains different from ponds, forests, fields, etc.?

Class Discussion

--To AnyBody From Amanda:
Did you find the Ktaan piece more sensual than the Walden sections? In general are Thoreau's writings more tactile than the other writers?

--To: Amanda From: Pam
I did find Ktaadn more moving, in a sense, than Walden. The Ktaadn piece was easier for me to relate. Not many of us can disappear into the woods for a long length of time as Thoreau did but we can take a weekend trip with our friends to experience the wholeness of nature as a quick fix.

--to: Amanda From: Karen
If Thoreau were experiencing nature with friends, then he would have to confront his friends, their baggage and noise and their thoughts and perspectives. He believed the only way to truly experience nature was alone!
Sounds like a horrifying experience in the Southern Alps. But what a memory to bring back home.

--to Amanda from iIles
That seems pretty right, but I also get the sense that he feels he will somehow fail. He knows he remains separate from nature despite his desire to understand. Eventually he will leave the woods. Sort of like--a man can never truly be a woman. He creates lists of "data", tries to pinpoint when things occur--after the rain,the first sighting--but he remains human. It's like he tries to formulate reasons for occurences--a human trait-- but is answered "only with spring" (Cummings)

--Michael Ann to andrea
I also found the journal more interesting. It was more straight forward and less boloney. I liked how it told the "story" of spring coming. I'm not so sure about the "grudge" thing though in "Ktaadn." I see it more as fear. Thoreau is really out-there on that mountain. He's not a mile from town, or close to his cabin. I think he's experiencing being totally exposed.

--Re: Michael Ann From: Laurel
Thought I had written this myself except that I haven't written that much yet. I enjoyed your perspective and found it to be very similar to my own.

--to: Christina From: Laurel
Thought it was interesting that you said "Nature is not as kind to thoreau at Ktaadn as it was at Walden." Different, yes, but I didn't see that as being "not as kind". I guess I look at it as being more rugged or potentially fierce or not as seemingly serene as Walden but not less kind. This makes me consider conversations that I have had with people about the beauty of certain types of "natural" settings. To some, a desert is not a sight that should be matched with the description "beautiful", but to me it is. The desert is just as beautiful as the Blue Ridge which is just as beautiful as the tundra. Different? Definitely! Less beautiful or not as kind? Not in my view.

--To Michael Ann from Andrea
When I say "grudge" I meant that it seemed he had something to prove to nature. That she was challenging him with her obstacles here and he was not going to be defeated.