Discussion on Walden, the "nature chapters" (9/17/02)
War of the Ants
laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 10:36 AM
No one has said anyhting about this and yet I thin this is something Thoreau talks about in depth. What is he trying to do with this? Is he comparing the wars of Men with this war or is he just describing another part of nature?Re: War of the Ants
Jennifer cosby, Sep 17, 2002 10:39 AM
I think he's describing yet another part of nature that is mocking men. just with the owls.Re: War of the Ants
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 10:39 AM
Yeah, I loved this. I didn't take it to mean anything in particular, but I didn't take to to any deeper level. I just found it interesting, the ants and that he took to time to see what they were up to. Never thought about ants having wars, I assume this has some greater message? Maybe not, maybe he is just pointing out all the interesting things he notices in the here and now.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man to Man
Kerry Caddell, Sep 17, 2002 10:36 AM
Thoreau states,"Perhaps the facts most astounding and most real are never communicated by man to man"(1881. Does he mean here that the most astounding and real are when you experience them with nature, nature to man?Re: Man to Man
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 10:42 AM
He goes on to talk about his personal experiences/daily experices as intangible, indescribable. Maybe he is saying that it is hard to put words to experiences, you just have to experience things for yourself. Not necessarily within nature?Re: Man to Man
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 10:42 AM
Maybe because we don't take a deeper look at eachother. We really don't try to advance our definitions of eachother to the same degree as nature that is open to everyone and everything. So vulnerable and defenseless.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a noble conclusion
Mary Essig , Sep 17, 2002 10:20 AM
Thoreau states, "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth." Thoreau's highest good is truth which is a prominent theme running throughout Walden. Thoreau seeks truth in nature and regard it very highly.Re: a noble conclusion?
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:22 AM
That's all very general. What does HE find to be "truth in nature"? He's quite specific--can you pull out one of those specifics?Re: Re: a noble conclusion
Lexie, Sep 17, 2002 10:40 AM
I think an important truth that Thoreau realizes is the 'follow your dreams' maxim. This seems to be the unique and new ideal of the independent American. 'I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with success unexpected in common hours.' Pretty inspirational. Does anyone know exactly when the phrase 'American Dream' came from? Was it from Thoreau? (I feel llike it came about later, but Thoreau really presages it here...)Re: Re: a noble conclusion
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 10:27 AM
I think one of his truths is when he states that "the earth is not a mere fragment of dead history...but living poetry like the leaves of a tree." Plainly put the earth is alive even when it seems not be (like in winter when it appears that all things are frozen and dead in fact they are not) and that we are alive as well.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the bug in the applewood table?
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:16 AM
In the most important spot of WALDEN, the final paragraph, Thoreau tells a story about the beautiful bug in the applewood table. What do you think he is saying here?Re: the bug in the applewood table?
Lexie, Sep 17, 2002 10:48 AM
I felt as if the bug represented those basic truths that, with faith and patience, eventually flower within our lives. It shows that life is a miracle. I think it also emphasizes the cyclical nature of things--we are bound to the wheel of birth and re-birth. Our world is based on regeneration, or as Thoreau puts it, 'resurrection'. The bug also represents transformation, and those ideas beneath the surface that eventually rise up and effect our lives and society.Re: the bug in the applewood table?
Mary Essig, Sep 17, 2002 10:39 AM
I think that in some ways, Thoreau is comparing himself to the bug because like the bug, Thoreau emerged. The bug emerged from the applewood tree allowing for change to occur. Thoreau uses this story to make his ideas stand out to the reader. We must emerge from society and see the importance of nature.Re: the bug in the applewood table?
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 10:28 AM
who we are/are becoming (in our case have become) interfers with the process of nature.Re: the bug in the applewood table?
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 10:22 AM
I read as him saying that throughout the toughest of times or when circumstances seem to harsh to handle, that something can always come from nothing. It could also be about patience and biding one's time. I don't know if it's necessarily about resurrection or not. But I do see it as saying that just when you think it's all over and there's nothing left there is something.Re: Re: the bug in the applewood table?
shelly giglio, Sep 17, 2002 10:33 AM
maybe he is trying to describe the miracle he sees in nature--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fish
Kerry Caddell, Sep 17, 2002 10:12 AM
In Higher Laws Thoreau talks about fish and how he fished but then became less of a fisherman because of how unclean it was. So, my question is did he hunt for his food from that point on? I mean how could he just all of a sudden change from fishing to not fishing because of the flesh and how unclean it seemed? Does anyone have thoughts on this?Re: Fish
laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 10:24 AM
Not onky does he talk about not fishinf anymore but he goes on about not eating animals at all. Page 1881, first full paragraph, last line. "Wahtever my own practice may be, I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals..." But earlier in the same chapter page 1879, he says "when some of my friends have asked me anxiously about thier boys, whether they should let them hunt, I have answered yes,-" Why if he is against eating animals would he thin it si okay to hunt?hunting
Laura, Sep 17, 2002 10:32 AM
Doesn't he think excellent lessons come from hunting? That they will not find game enough for their "appetite/hungar", meaning they will realize taking somehting to the exteme that what they really need is a spirtual way of life to fufill them. "Yave not of the text a pulled hen That saith that hunters ben not holy men-"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this one's 4 Brooklyn.
Jeff Byers, Sep 17, 2002 10:06 AM
"If we knew all the laws of Nature, we should need only one fact, or the description of one actual phenomenon, to infer all the particular results at that point. Now we know only a few laws, and our result is vitiated, not, of course, by any confusion or irregularity in Nature, but by our ignorance of essential elements in the calculation. Our notions of law and harmony are commonly confined to those instances which we detect; but the harmony which results from a far greater number of seemingly conflicting, but really concurring, laws, which we have not detected, is still more wonderful." I really liked this line a lot. It brings up the point that we take our knowledge and enthusiam from experience (which plays into the "day is the epitome of the year" line). Then he tells us that socitey doesn't have a good grasp on the laws of nature and that we are ignorant of it. I still see that we are ignorant of it today as we cut down trees to put up shooping malls. I wonder at times if Thoreau considers man a true part of nature because he seems to separate the two.separation from nature--and marriage?
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:11 AM
Part of nature's power, especially its spiritual power, is that it IS Other, not-human, suggesting much that goes beyond our comprehension. Rather than think of ways to make nature more human, to personalize or use it, Thoreau is interested in understanding it, as much as possible, in its own terms. So yes, separation is important, because so often union means taking over. The best unions, as in marriage, require recognition of separation, of equality, not the taking over of one by another.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Companions
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 10:04 AM
In chapter 17 when thoreau is explaining the relationship between man and nature he is explaining so that they are one. That they need eachother and have a trust for one another. There is a respect there and it would seem that nature has lost all respect for man when man does the unexplicable. Man has broken the trust between he and nature when he goes and gets his gun to go on the pond to shoot ducks. "I thought that there were no secrets between them, man and nature, and that one spring day he took his gun..." There was a barrier that had been passed. Is this confusing or should I explain more?Re: Companions
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 10:23 AM
He talks about fishing not breaking that barrier, on 1916 He talks about the guys coming to fish "His life passes deeper in Nature than the studies of the naturalist penetrate; himself a subject for the naturalist." But, on pg 1880 the first paragagh he says about himself "I have found repeadly, of late years, that I cannot fish without falling a little in self-respect." His feeling seems conficted about fishing, the killing of animals in general. Did you find them conflicting?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The flowing bank in "Spring"
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:04 AM
Check out carefully the climactic passage in "Spring" that begins "Few phenomena gave me more delight than to observe the forms which thawing sand and clay assume in flowing down the sides of a deep cut on the railroad..." It goes on for several paragraphs, sometimes playful punning, but always talking seriously about the artistic patterns the earth forms as it melt from within. This passage addresses many of his strengths as a writer--his awareness of language and its relationship to nature, the facts that become truths, the idea of organically produced aesthetic forms, and more.artist vs. animal vitals?
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 10:16 AM
As you suggested I reread this intricate few paragraphs and saw a section I had highlighed loving the lines (1928). "When I see on the one side the inert banl, --for the sun acts on one side, first, -- and on th eother this luxuriant foliage, the creation of an hour, I am affected as if in a peculiar sense I stood in the laboratory of the Artist who made the world and me, --had come to where he was still at work, sporting on this bank, and with excess of energy strewing his fresh designs about. I feel as if I were nearer to the vitals of the globe, for this sandy over flow is something such a foliaceous mass as the vitals of the animal body." As I reread this I was really enjoying the description of the seeing the Artist at work, then all of a sudden he compared the creationt to animal vitals, which stomped on the beautiful image I had going. Why does he conclude with that it wakes one up from the image in a shocking wya. Maybe not, what did everyone else think?The s--t factor!
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:21 AM
Certainly this is an odd, but perfectly logical, juxtaposition. The earth is oozing from its innards--and so you have a metaphor for Art which is based on the basic human/animal need to excrete what it takes in. Thoreau may have been a little uneasy about sex, but he is not about natural functions. We, with our elaborate toilet and sewer systems, think we have removed ourselves from the reality (retaining it in our language and calling it "cursing"). Thoreau is literally down to earth here, in all ways, and he does not avoid the concrete base of his analogy. Rarely has shit been given such exalted meanings, yet it does make sense for one who is uniting the physical and the spiritual throughout the book,Re: The flowing bank in
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 10:09 AM
I took that passage as him saying how underneath the ice and snow there are surprises and newness. I mean that every season is not the same everytime around. We know that when the snow starts to melt and spring starts coming in that there will be a certain newness to the world again. To see what lies beneath the cold and bitter is extraordinary.Re: The flowing bank in
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 10:09 AM
The images that he describes reminds me of a child looking up in the sky and seeing a kinds of images developing from the clouds. When you try to see that same image again, it has become something different. And most of the time your vision can not be captured the same way for someone else.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sounds
Mary Essig, Sep 17, 2002 09:56 AM
Thoreau offers insight to sounds by saying that we as a society rely too much on the written word then on the spoken word. It seems as though Thoreau really grew as a person while he was living on Walden Pond. In this chapter, he discuses certian sounds such as "the whistle of the locomotive" and "the tantivy of wild pigeons."Re: sounds
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:08 AM
Is he saying that we rely too much on the written word here? Isn't he "reading" nature as he listens, and transforms it into words that communicate to us? Yes, he definitely sees nature as transcending human language, and as he does here, we need to listen, to be receptive to the silences beyond words, for they too can speak to us. Does that make sense?Re: sounds
ian, Sep 17, 2002 10:06 AM
What is interestng is that we do have a spoken word culture in our society, even then. in music. Like that "Story-tellers" Cd that gets advertised as 3 am. There does seem to be sense of impermenant(SP) permance in our society. Look at our Norton. PAcked full of snipits of writing printed tiny font on thin paper...this edition will not remain in 3 years. He seems to say that we should not try to fight impermance, but embrace the changes. THis is vaugly buddhist.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nature and Health
Lexie, Sep 17, 2002 09:53 AM
Thoreau believes in the companionship and healing power of nature. He is not a recluse, but knows the importance of enjoying time by himself. 'What is the pill which will keep us well, serene, contented?'Not medecines, but morning air. I think it is interesting he makes a method out of the health benefits nature provides.Re: Nature and Health
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 09:57 AM
I found that interesting also, he spoke of water being the best drink for the wise man. Of course here he was refering to more than his physical health, but mental health. I would say he thinks stimulants of anykind are bad for our mental health, take us away from the here and now. On 1882 he speaks about drink etc.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enormous
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:52 AM
In the conclusion the strongest line that thoreau could have ever written I think is when he said, "the universe is wider than our views of it." That goes for all of us including thoreau. Because throughout the entire book on walden he realizes that in the end these are just his ideas and views and they are small, but they are HIS and that no one will ever see the world through his eyes especially when it comes to the pond. So we all have ideas and views and to us they are big and great and bold and they remain that way because they are our own. Is this a fair statement or am I overshooting here?Re: Enormous
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 10:12 AM
In all the splendor that Thoreau is describing, he realizes that there is more to it. Even with him being one with nature, there are more than for him to experience.Re: Enormous
shelly giglio, Sep 17, 2002 10:06 AM
I loved that line and I think you are correct. We cannot figure out the mysteries of the universe,it is much too big. But, these are his views of it.Re: Enormous
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:06 AM
It's an interesting interpretation, but I think it could be expanded. We all are restricted to what WE can see. That is exciting, perhaps, as you show here, when we can turn this world we perceive into a universe. But we must also be aware that the universe is much greater than any one person can possibly see. This is a rather Emersonian statement, actually. We can--and we cannot--apprehend the universe through our own subjective perceptions.Re: Re: Enormous
Jennifer cosby, Sep 17, 2002 10:14 AM
I think we always keep the fact that the universe is so vast in the back of our minds when we come to think about things and when we have our own perceptions. I think thoreau knew that all along or else he wouldn't have said it. Walden was just his own small piece of wonderful in this world, and just a morsel compared to the universe, but he kept it big in his own way. As we all tend to do.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doubleness
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 09:47 AM
"However intense my experience, I am conscious of the presence and criticism of a part of me, which, as it were, is not a part of me, but spectator, sharing no experience, but taking note of it; and that is no more I than it is you. When the play, it may be the tradedy, of life is over, the spectator goes his way. It was a kind of fiction, a work of the imagination, only so far as he was concerned. This doubleness may easily make us poor neighbors and friends sometimes." W.E. Dubois speaks of a human doubleness, not sure if any of you are familiar with him, it is different, but involves self. I found this line interesting, relating it to my own life as well as relating it to my relationship to people. I wonder if Thoreau is speaking to us getting all wrapped up in what we think about ourselves that we don't notice those aroung us?Re: Doubleness
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:49 AM
It's interesting that you should relate this to DuBois, who was talking about having to lead a double life as an African-American. I don't think that's quite what Thoreau has in mind though, not in this case. He's talking about feeling subjective and objective at the same time--observing himself (being a spectator) while he is in the middle of an experience. There are other times when he is aware of conflicting impulses within himself--and that too is a doubleness.Re: Re: Doubleness
Lexie, Sep 17, 2002 10:03 AM
I felt like these passages describe how Thoreau sees his relation to God. The distance, objectivity, and 'doubleness' are similar to the omnipotence of God, and I feel this is typical of believing that God is manifest, in some way, within oneself. By observing the world in such a way, one can both learn and remain at some kind of peace within themselves. It reminded me of Shakespeare's saying that "all the world's a stage and all the men and women merely actors."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whistling locomotive
shelly giglio, Sep 17, 2002 09:44 AM
I really liked Thoreau's comparison between a train and a hawk. He wrote" The whistle of the locomotive penetrates my woods summer and winter, sounding like the scream of a hawk sailing over some farmers yard..."Re: whistling locomotive
Kerry Caddell, Sep 17, 2002 10:18 AM
I find it interesting that he can relate everything back to some aspect or characteristic of nature. It was like he was truly only thinking about nature and the animals.Re: whistling locomotive
Mary Essig, Sep 17, 2002 10:11 AM
It is as though you can hear the train and the hawk because Thoreau applies vivid description. Also, Thoreau compares something man-made to something apart of nature which is important. Thoreau is able to make a connection to something man-made to nature.Re: whistling locomotive
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 09:49 AM
Because nature is his "companion" he associates all the sound he hears to something back in nature. When he does this it kind of softens the sound. I have heard how loud a train sounds and I never thought that it sounded like a hawk, but how often do I get to hear a hawk?Re: Re: whistling locomotive
laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 10:02 AM
I sometimes wonder if it is the other way around. Maybe he is trying to associate his two worlds as one and not that he is trying to associate everything back to nature. I agree that naute is a huge part of his life but do you think that the "Human World" is not a huge part of his life as well? I know that this story is mostly wirtten about his experiences with nature and that makes our thoughts focus mainly on hsi connection with nature, but I don't think that we can leave out the others parts of his life.Re: Re: Re: whistling locomotive
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 10:05 AM
The human world is part of his life but only in a small way. He has friends and spends time in that world; however, at the same time his true companion is nature.Re: whistling locomotive
ian holland, Sep 17, 2002 09:48 AM
It's interesting how again and again he changes what the locomotive is identifies with, later reffering to it as an iron horse. Is this showing the novelty of trains in the time this was written or is it just that trains can be related to lots of things.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fate
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 09:40 AM
"Every path but your own is the path of fate. Keep to your own track, then." Chapter 4 first line of last paragraph on 1830. This line puzzled me, what did you all think?Re: Fate
shelly giglio, Sep 17, 2002 10:03 AM
I could be way off, but I read that sort of like don't be a follower, create your own path.Re: Fate
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:45 AM
Maybe he's saying there is no such thing as fate. If one man believes in fate then let him try to find it, but don't venture off of your own track and follow him just because he says fate is real. kind of like the idea of 'if one person jumps off the bridge are you going to as well?' Maybe I'm way off here. It is a disturbing line.Re: Fate
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 09:44 AM
I wrote that down to put a question to the class also. I think he is saying that everyone has a plan set for their lives and we cannot ever reach our destiny by following someone else's path. Their road might lead us to destruction.Re: Fate
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:43 AM
We do often feel that our own choices are free and not governed by fate--which can be expanded into environment, genetics, other people's opinions, etc. Yet we often think that other people ARE constrained and can't help being who they are. Funny little human characteristic, I think. The next sentence suggests that it's ok that we think that we are free and not fated, and that we live accordingly, as he does. It may be an illusion, but what a useful one!Re: Re: Fate
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 09:46 AM
I agree with you. I do believe that when we live our own lives without worrying about what others think our own life will be less stressful. So often we live our lives that is suited for someone else, and in doing so we lose a sense of who we are.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion
Laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 09:40 AM
I thought the last chapter was the strongest. He uses it as way to explain why he wrote the story. He boldly states that we need to explore the world within ourselves. That this world is one that no man has gone to before and it needs to be explored. That was his reason for going to the pond to live in solitude. he wanted time away from the rest of the world so that he could find out more about the world of him. I think the message he gives out in his last chapter is one that every person needs to listen to and follow. Instead of "Tto love, you must be loved" how about "To know, you must be known" and you better to know you than yourself?Re: Conclusion
Lexie, Sep 17, 2002 10:27 AM
I love the last paragraph of the conclusion. First he says we run the risk of never understanding, or realizing, what he is writing about. Then he emphasizes the importance of being 'awake'. I think this concept has well caught on--a lot of new age philosophy, social movements and self-help books have talked about 'Waking Up'. 'That morrow which mere lapse of time can never make to dawn' is referring to the way we can often sleep through life if we do not consciously bring ourselves to new 'dawns'. Change can happen only if we make it. Our brilliance and liveliness are bright, but we must be careful to not let ourselves be blinded. This is why we must ground ourselves in nature. We'll find new truths if we are awake to their significance--and by honoring nature we open ourselves to the greatest truth of all.Re: Conclusion
Shelly Giglio, Sep 17, 2002 09:54 AM
I also thought the conclusion was strong. I was interested to read the paragraph that starts"I left the woods for as good a reason as I went there" He said he felt as if he had many more lives to lead. And he felt that people to often got stuck in a routine, and he did not want to do that.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pond and ethics
shelly giglio, Sep 17, 2002 09:38 AM
I was really interested in one of Thoreau's paragraphs in Chapter 16. The paragraph starts"What I have observed of the pond is no less true in ethics" Through this paragraph, I think he is saying, that to get a true sense of someone's moral character, you cannot judge them on one action, but their actions over a period of time haveRe: pond and ethics
Kerry Caddell, Sep 17, 2002 10:28 AM
I think that that is such good advice. Too often we judge others based on something that they did once in their lives. Rather we should sometimes judge them over their lifetime.Re: pond and ethics
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 09:51 AM
Although, I would agree that Thoreau would prob. say something like this. I took this paragraph to be talking about the law of nature as it applies to natures formation?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE OWLS! THE OWLS! MY EYES!
Jeff Byers, Sep 17, 2002 09:37 AM
"I rejoice that there are owls. Let them do the idiotic and maniacal hooting for men." What I got from this line is that Thoreau is thankful he is amongst the owls and their hooting instead of man and his incessant speak about nothing. Thoreau also uses words like "undeveloped" and "unsatified" to describe them in relation to man. This paints an interesting and quite dark picture from my perspectives. Yet in the darkness, he still seems to be enarmored by them.Re: THE OWLS! THE OWLS! MY EYES!
ian holland, Sep 17, 2002 09:44 AM
I didn't find it so dark, but tht's just opinion. What i think is interesting is that the hooting is in place of mans inane skeak (i follow you there). But, why does he need the noise? Why not absolute silence. Why did he go to a pond instead of a mountainside. He didn't abandon his humanity, he simply communed with nature, something i find interesting, what he didn't do.Re: THE OWLS! THE OWLS! MY EYES!
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:42 AM
Do you think it's because maybe he sees the owls playing the roles of men sometimes. He feels comfortable with them because they seem to in an Owlish (I don't know) kind of way to act as we do. Well like when he says 'let them do the idiotical hooting for men,'. Nevermind I lost my thought there sorry.Re: Re: THE OWLS! THE OWLS! MY EYES!
laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 09:55 AM
I think he needs the owls to replace men for awhile becuase even though he is all about solitude and spending time finding himself, he is still in need of what the familiar.Re: THE OWLS! THE OWLS! MY EYES!
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:41 AM
What strikes me in this wonderful line is that he sees the owls expressing--for man--what is dark and mad about us all. Maybe better the owls than us to do the screeching! I suppose this is dark, but is it not realistic?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solitude
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 09:36 AM
In many of Walden's chapters, the main theme for him is solitude in nature. He is just not separating himself from everybody but he is surrounding himself with nature. He has mastered something that many haven't. Being a peace with himself. He takes the time to spend time with friends but when he gets tired of the crowd and the gossip of the town he knows how to go and spend time alone and see the wonders of nature. Even when he goes fishing, he is admiring the fish. I don't believe that he is out there to see how many he can catch. I think he loves to look at the hills, and how the sky turns the pond colors.Re: Solitude
shelly giglio, Sep 17, 2002 10:12 AM
I don't think he is ever totally in solitude. He describes visitors coming and going, and fishermen that he has interactions with as well as all of his interactions with nature. I think it is interesting that he sometimes personifies the pond.Re: Re: Solitude
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 10:29 AM
I would agree with you to a certain extinct. However, I don't believe that these "friends" are with him everyday. Even the friend on the boat with him, they rarely conversate. For one thing, he can't hear well.Re: Solitude
Laura B, Sep 17, 2002 09:54 AM
i would venture to say he never actually feels alone, the pond, woods are so alive there is constantly somehthing going on. He feel at peace without human conversation, distractions from the here and now.Re: Re: Solitude
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 09:59 AM
I of course agree with you. He said he only felt lonely when he first moved to the country so far away from everything, but that was just for a short while. He knows that he has to make contact with people every now and then. But then he says, that when he has gotten tired of the villagers, he moves even further into seclusion. This is when he goes to the Pond.Re: Solitude
Kerry Caddell, Sep 17, 2002 09:50 AM
I agree. In Solitude there is a lot of truth in what he is saying. For instance, he states" I never found the companion that was so companionable as solitude"(1839). I find truth in that because sometimes I have the best time and really relax when I am by myself. Also he states "We are for the most part more lonely when we go abroad among men than when we stay in our chambers" (1839). Sometimes you can be in a great being crowd of people or friends but still feel lonely, whether its because your the only one who feels a certain way about a certain subject or its because your different from everybody else or you don't no anyone. But whatever the reason sometimes you feel alone with a lot of people around. I think Thoreau hit that right on the nose.Re: Solitude
Mary Essig, Sep 17, 2002 09:45 AM
Thoreau becomes one with nature and in order to do so, he must be alienated from society. By reading Walden, you can acquire the appreication that Thoreau has for nature.Re: Re: Solitude
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 10:03 AM
I see what you are trying to say, but I believe that "alienated" is a strong word. It has a negative connotation to it. I believe he separates himself from others because of his need to be in nature.Re: Re: Solitude
Laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 09:51 AM
I wouldn't say he is alienated from society. He still goes to town and speaks with people. He even has a friend that comes to visit him, the poet.toiling
ian holland, Sep 17, 2002 09:32 AM
"The better part of the man is soon ploughed into the soil for compost. By a seeming fate, commonly called necessity..." this was an amazing line i'm sure many people thought the same of.Re: toiling
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 09:39 AM
He has a way of stating things in which you can actually visual what he is saying. I agree with Jennifer that I enjoyed this last set of reading a little more than the others.Re: Re: Re: Re: toiling
ian, Sep 17, 2002 10:13 AM
I took it to mean the way a life can blow by you when you work towards something. We always seem to be working towards something, what about where you are now, are you happy now? Right now i hate my present. I have 2 jobs and go to school with 4 classes. I see my fiansse in small moments in the evening. Why? for the short term goal of going to Colorado for grad school. But at the same time i am working to improve my present and find the good in it. do ou see better now, or worse?Re: toiling
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:35 AM
It is another great line. I'd have to say I really enjoyed this reading on nature more than the previous chapters that we've discussed. Only because he just seems to lay it out and plain and he does it all too well. absolutely superb.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strength
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:31 AM
I believe that one of the strongest lines in spring is the one that says "The day is the epitome of the year." As he refers to the first day of spring. It's a really great line. It could be anyday it's all in the way we see the world and how it is changing. Do we really see it for what it is and what it has to offer. At every moment in time and place and manner.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Higher Laws
Kerry Caddell, Sep 17, 2002 10:04 AM
Something that I found interesting that Thoreau said in Higher Laws was that he likes to "spend my day more as the animals do" (1878). He makes me believe that he did when he compares himself to a "half-starved hound" and that he "felt a strange thrill of savage delight" (1878). I find that interesting because it makes him sound like he became this blood thirsty hunter/savage from the wild like the boys in "Lord of the Flies".Higher Laws
Kerry Caddell, Sep 17, 2002 10:04 AM
Something that I found interesting that Thoreau said in Higher Laws was that he likes to "spend my day more as the animals do" (1878). He makes me believe that he did when he compares himself to a "half-starved hound" and that he "felt a strange thrill of savage delight" (1878). I find that interesting because it makes him sound like he became this blood thirsty hunter/savage from the wild like the boys in "Lord of the Flies".Re: Re: Strength
shelly giglio, Sep 17, 2002 10:19 AM
I thought that it was interesting on the same page he described fishing and hunting as primitive and that the hunting grounds of the young boys in new England were "more boundless even than those of a savage" I wonder what he meant by that?Re: Strength
David Hopkins, Sep 17, 2002 09:54 AM
I agree. I loved that line too. It may be the epitome of his entire point that we as human beings take nature for granted, when in fact it should be nurtured and cherished.Re: Strength
Jeff Byers, Sep 17, 2002 09:49 AM
I really liked that line as well. I see it as one of those lines akin to "live life to the fullest." I agree with Ian that some seasons are identified with past passions and emotions which could explain why Thoreau is throwing a party in the woods to celebrate the season where nature renews itself. Anyways, I see this line reflected in a line of a comtemporary song which goes "I know your tired, but what if this was the last day on earth?" In lines of this nature, you can still see that people took to heart some of the basic ideals Thoreau may have been trying to convey and passed those ideals down to today.Re: Strength
Patrice Holilns, Sep 17, 2002 09:42 AM
One thing that he does in all of his writings is to break things down as simple as possible. I believe that is because he see the simplicity of nature. He takes the day as it comes. Even in "sounds" the rain, lightning, and thunder was beating down on his house and he found simple pleasure in it.Re: Re: Strength
Laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 09:48 AM
I also found it interesting that he breaks thing down to the most simple forms like: the Ponds, the pond in winter, etc. It's nice to have such a complex thing as nature broken down into each of it's simple components.Re: Strength
ian holland, Sep 17, 2002 09:34 AM
I think that a we see it for what we think it is. What society and experiences tell us they mean. Case in point, i love winter. Many don't. Why? I have fond memories of the winter in my drafty house with a fire.the seasons
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:45 AM
Thoreau also loves winter--in fact, he loves and cherishes the changes in all of the seasons. Without the dormant time of winter, we wouldn't have the ferocious outbreak of spring.Re: Re: Strength
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:38 AM
Exactly, see thoreau speaks of spring in particular because that seems to be his season, but for his readers it could be another time and it's just so relatable, we all have a season where we just feel more in tune with ourselves than in the rest. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a season either, it could be a particular day, hour, you know. Anywho I do agree with you.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scientific Spring
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:28 AM
Thoreau's descriptions of the pond when it's changing stages from winter to spring are remarkable. It's almost as if he conducted scientific experiments himself in order to understand step by step what the pond is experiencing. And he didn't go by facts provided by science. For instance he wanted to know that water freezes at 33 deg. not just read it in a science book. He got down into different levels of it and made all of it make sense to him and to us especially with the way he describes it all. I just thought it was quite interesting.Re: Scientific Spring
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 09:56 AM
Thoreau has such a fond admiration of nature and when you have such a love of something you will explore it on your own. You will spend time with it and commune with it. In doing this, you will learn more from it then you can from a book. He has come up with so many fascinating chapters of nature because of the endless hours he spends in it. I would take his word over a scientist anyday.Science and Thoreau
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:47 AM
I guess you could call Thoreau a sort of scientist, in his very close observations of nature. This was especially true in his later journals. But what he does with those carefully recorded facts is quite different from what the scientist does. He was asking not just how, what, and when, but why and what might that mean? His facts keep flowering into truths, sometimes multiple truths, about himself and human nature, but he doesn't really force the analogies.Spring
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:24 AM
I find it curious that Thoreau refers to Walden as "she," in the first paragraph of spring. Then later on he refers to the sun as "He." Usually men refer to things (not all things)as being male. I wonder how when writing Thoreau deciphers which gender role he's going to place on his objects of nature. I think it's interesting and he does it in quite a few places. (The pond is female and the sun is male)Re: Spring
Laura Fortier, Sep 17, 2002 09:45 AM
Actually I have always found that when people write about nature, unless it is an animal which can be deciphered as to what sex they are, they refer to nature as a femal because of Mother Nature. I was suprised that anypart of nature was refered to as male.
How great the Creator is.
Caroline Macauley-Wise, Sep 17, 2002 11:01 AM
You see throughout Walden how Thoreau does not fail to include the Creator. In Chapter 17 - Spring - he advises, "You may melt your metals and cast them into the most beautiful moulds you can; they will never excite me like the forms, which this molten earth flows out into. And not only it, but the institutions upon it are plastic like clay in the hands of the potter." and talking of spring be the time for new beginnings for all, " It is because they do not obey the hint which God gives them, nor accept the pardon which he freely offers to all". This work is so full of feeling and spiritual thought that it seems partly, to be praise to the Creator God.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pond in Winter
Jenise Perez, Sep 17, 2002 10:46 AM
In this chapter Thoreau uses the metaphor, "Heaven is under our feet is well as over our heads." Instead of thinking there being a hell on earth, Thoreau uses heaven to compare the pond and ultimately to wilderness in itself.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Higher Laws
Jenise Perez, Sep 17, 2002 10:42 AM
In this chapter Thoreau writes, "I care not how obscene my words are...We discourse freely without shame of one form of sensuality, and are silent about another." This was one of my favorite lines in the chapter. I believe Thoreau was ahead of his time when he wrote this. I feel we can all identify that this line portrays today's society which is that sex is all over the media yet to speak of it in conservative America is still taboo.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds
Alana Smalls, Sep 17, 2002 10:42 AM
In this chapter Thoreau is saying books aren't everything. If you confine yourself to books you will be in danger. Don't always look at books for everything; use your eyes to see the real thing go out and find what you are looking for. "Will you be a reader, a student merely, or a seer? Read your fate, see what is before you, and walk on into futurity."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden 8
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 10:40 AM
Thoreau's last story is of an insect's egg that hatches from a table after lying dormant in the tree the table was made from. Their is something hopeful about this story that leads one to wonder is perhaps Thoreau wasn't writing all of this to help him deal with the loss of his friends and family and that the philosophy he expounds grew more out of grief than a love of the natural world.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the meaning of the loon?
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:36 AM
In the study questions, I ask about what his encounter with the loon in "Brute Neighbors" might mean? Any ideas?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waking Moments
Jon Mott, Sep 17, 2002 10:35 AM
"I desire to speak somewhere without bounds; like a man in a waking moment, to men in their waking moments; for I am convinced that I cannot exaggerate enough even to lay the foundation of a true expression." Here Thoreau makes a distinction between waking moments - moments of clarity, when a new truth has awakened in the mind, boundless moments and (although unsaid) the sleepy moments that people usually reside in - moments where revelation is confined within conventional social parameters. These words are reminescent of Emerson, who desires that we speak our "latent conviction", which, to me, implies that when we express ourselves truly, we are awake and present above the ordinary thoughts of the population.Re: Waking Moments
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:49 AM
This is a great interpretation, and I agree. Our "latent convictions" or "waking moments" are the epitome of a day. Day meaning the times we live in. These moments distinguish between living and giving as Thoreau demonstrates nature does continuously and being stagnate. Thoreau describes how the river is frozen yet it thaws in the middle, maybe he describing the inner warmth of all people if they only tap into it, as Walden taps at the river, maybe he is infact tapping at the heart of the individual that would be willing to change with the season, and have a waking moment that would crack the ice of the heart.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huckleberries
Jenise Perez, Sep 17, 2002 10:35 AM
In "The Ponds" Thoreau expresses his philosophy of the huckleberries in the first paragraph. I took his representation to mean that fruit just like nature becomes artificial and losses its taste or essence once it is taken out of it's natural growing place. I believe Thoreau also uses this metaphor to suggest that if he is not surrounded in nature then his natural joy and contentment is stripped from him.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Laboratory of the Artist
Caroline Macauley-Wise, Sep 17, 2002 10:34 AM
Thoreau writes, "i am affected as if in a peculiar sense I stood in the laboratory of the Artist who made the world and me-- had come to where he was stillat work, sporting on this bank, and with excess of energy strewing his fresh design about." What wonderfully strong imagery. I have felt this before but have never been able to put such words to what I felt.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden 7
Jeremiah Winters , Sep 17, 2002 10:33 AM
Thoreau wrote Walden, I think, to work through the things he was feeling after losing so many friends and family. In the final chapter he sheds away all the symbols and stories and writes of how one should live their life and that their is beauty in every aspect of thing, we need only look for it.Re: Walden 7
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:37 AM
You say he "sheds symbols and stories" in the final chapter, but I don't understand what you are talking about. Could you explain what differences you see in this chapter? Also, what about the two important stories? (Artist of Kouroo and the bug in the table)Re: Re: Walden 7
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 10:42 AM
I mean that to a large extent, though obviously not entirely, Thoreau sets aside the use of metaphorical stories in the last chapter and begins advising the reader directly on how to live their life. He has done this to some degree in the previous chapters but in those instances it was always difficult to get to the heart of what he meant. Here it is clear. I have already addressed the story of the artist of Kouroo.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cycles
jon mott, Sep 17, 2002 10:25 AM
As posited in the conclusion, Thoreau belives he had many lives to lead. He comments, "how deep the ruts of tradition and conformity!" He needed to walk on fresh ground, through new grasses that bend according to his own direction. Walden was a cylce of life for Thoreau, and even as the editing and revising of the text years after his habitation at the pond, so was the next cycle of his life already in progress.Re: cycles
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:38 AM
I agree that Walden was a cycle for Thoreau, and like the river that cracks as the seasons change, so did Walden revise, edi,t and change with the cycles of life, yet maintaing the truth he learned at the pond, just as there is a truth in the changing of seasons that is maintained with every coming year.Re: cycles
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 10:28 AM
It interested me how not only did Thoreau put so much importance of having many chapters to one's life, but he also spent years continuing to meditate about Walden Pond after he left. Was he truely starting a new chapter if he spent his days and nights, in a matter of speaking, back at the pond?.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We now know the value of one day
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:25 AM
The day is an epitome of the year. I live his wording here. It is remarkable how he views time and the relevance of the chaning of the year from this one pond. It proves that life's meanings can be found in simple things. Since 9/11 it is clear how one day can be the eptiome of a year, of a lifetime for that matter. In Thoreau's work, he allowed a pond in remote corner of the earth to show him the significance of a day.Re: We now know the value of one day
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:26 AM
Several people have quoted that sentence, but I'm not sure how they are reading it--or how you are. How do you fit in the seasons with the times of a day? What does it mean?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden 6
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 10:23 AM
When describing the battle between the ants Thoreau grows sarcastic towards the end of that section, suggesting the ants were fighting on principle or because they did not want to pay a higher tax. He is commenting on the foolish reasons for which humans are often brought to war and using the natural savagery of these ants as his guide.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another interesting quote in Solitude
Jenise Perez, Sep 17, 2002 10:23 AM
"I believe that men are generally still a little afraid of the dark, though the witches are all hung, and christanity candles have been introduced." I like his use of metaphor comparing solitude to the fear of darkness, but then he adds references to spirituality. I took this to mean that not even the power of religion can completely take lonliness away eventhough it's believed that sprituality will comfort you in your darkest hour. Baiscally, nobody is safe from the darkness solitude can bring sometimes whether you're a spiritual believer or not.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything exsisted at the pond for him
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:19 AM
The phenomena of the year takes place everyday in a pond on a small scale. This illustrates Thoreau's great appreciation and acknowledgement of the pond. The fact that for him it encompassed the phenomena of the year in this small place in the world, helps me to understand how and why he stayed there. I think everyone must see all of life in the places that they come from, it helps to connect everyone.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why did he write 'walden?'
chris terry, Sep 17, 2002 10:16 AM
what thoreau did was important. sometimes you have to remove yourself from a situation to get a proper perspective on it. to make up a cliche; you can't tell what color a house is when you are inside of it. thoreau removed himself from urbanized society, something which he felt had become out of hand and excessive. ironically, in the 150+ years since he wrote 'walden,' ('walden' was written almost half a century before the industrial revolution) the world has been urbanized exponentially. by removing himself, thoreau was seeking a perspective on a world which he felt removed from. humanity's removal from it's surroundings alarmed him. thoreau also wanted to see if one man could be autonomous with himself and with nature. he wanted to observe himself and think about his place in the natural world, and his interactions with it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The artist of Kouroo?
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:14 AM
In the study questions, I asked what you make of his story of the artist of Kouroo in "Conclusion." It's one sizeable paragraph. So--what do you think? What sort of light does this fable shed on "Walden"?Re: The artist of Kouroo?
jon mott, Sep 17, 2002 10:45 AM
The story of the artist of Kouroo seems like a template, or a new paradigm for living that Thoreau was pushing. His time at Walden defied the constraints of mechanical time - the time in which men establish their scheduling and daily procedures - and thus he was left to create his own organic time, focused only on his own agenda. Time being an illusion is a very Eastern thought...I wonder how it was that Thoreau became exposed to such wisdom?Re: The artist of Kouroo?
Drew Vass, Sep 17, 2002 10:42 AM
This paragraph is astonishing and beyond a doubt one of Thoreaus greatest inventions. I view the staff he speaks of as a new view, a new consciousness tailored to the individuals experiences. He dispells the notion of canned enlightenment in this passage and I think, perhaps more than any other, this paragraph really sums up and presents the purpose of Walden. It metaphorically describes his quest to strip himself back to the barest essentials, try to forget everything he was ever told, and then allow a new way of thinking to arrive. This enlightened way of thinking is not systematically learned and all previous lessaons can mar the integrity of it; so it is very important for him to find a way to cast all this asside in his journey. Just as he describes, there is no prescribed amount of time for this and I think he would certainly argue that why many strive to, "few will enter." The required patience he describes is so patient that it dissolves the very awareness of time, as time is in no way relative to his journey at Walden. He had to go into the woods truly believing that he may never come back out and with such patience that he must truly believe it possible to die without reaching any resolution. This particular paragraph sums up what did arrive in its own time. Another aspect of this little story that I find particularly interesting, is how everyone deserts him. Thoreau is really spilling the raw truth here. Completely out of context I admit, I can see the disciples abandoning Christ. I think the paragraph earlier in the chapter that speaks of Mirabeau is a very important message to hold in mind when reading this later paragraph (Kouroo).Re: The artist of Kouroo?
Megan McManus, Sep 17, 2002 10:41 AM
The artist of Kouroo is much like Thoreau who also dedicated much of his life for the sole purpose of introducing something new to a society in order to better it. Like the artist "made a new system in makeing a staff", Thoreau is also an innovator in the sense that he too is writing his experience of Walden in hopes of aiding society. Thoreau, too, was very diligent in writing and revising his book after his experience. He compares himself to the artist, who dedicated his time to making the perfect staff. I think the last line of the paragraph is extremely significant. "The material was pure, and his art was pure; how could the result be other than wonderful." Here Throeau is showing the reader that his work and life in Walden was not in vain, that his intent was pure and so the results too are pure.Re: The artist of Kouroo?
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 10:28 AM
The story is that of one who does his own thing, ignores the changing world around him and dedicates himself solely to the task he has set. The artist of Kouroo lived by his own accord and in the end did not even have to bend to the will of time. Such was Walden, where Thoreau was able to escape the tragedy of his life and discover what it means to be an individual.Re: The artist of Kouroo?
Jeff Byers, Sep 17, 2002 10:24 AM
What I got out of this is that the man spent so much time on this one task that he got a different perspective on making a staff. Thoreau spent vactioned in Walden for awhile that he got a new perspective on life. This ties into the idea that chris writes about in the subject above this one.Re: Re: The artist of Kouroo?
Kelly Scott, Sep 17, 2002 10:35 AM
What I got from this, was that if you dedicate yourself entirely to something, you can create something extraordinary, or learn to see things in a whole new way. It is too hard to do this when you have the constant distractions of people and society.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Earth's expressions
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:14 AM
No wonder that the earth expresses itself outwardly in leaves. This line reminds me of Emerson's description of the Earth laughing with flowers. It is interesting that the Earth is always expressing itself in these dainty ways with flowers and leaves in their poems, when it has the power to show a more furious nature. I wonder if it were personified as a male would it have different charactersitics.Re: The Earth's expressions
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:24 AM
Is it necessarily dainty? In the "sand bank passage" it shows power and art, and compares this to the earth excreting, making art out of its wastes. That's not very dainty!--nor is it either male or female.Re: Re: The Earth's expressions
Alana Smalls, Sep 17, 2002 10:45 AM
o--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solitude
Jenise, Sep 17, 2002 10:13 AM
"poplar leaves almost takes away my breath...I have my horizon bounded by woods all to myself." In this chapter Thoreau shows that eventhough nature, the forest/woods is a beautiful place it can be a lonely place to dwell. What do you guys think about this quote?that quote...
chris terry, Sep 17, 2002 10:22 AM
... pretty much sums up what sets thoreau apart from the society which grows around him. poplar leaves don't take everyone's breath away, one needs to have an appreciation for nature for that to happen. i don't sense any loneliness in this quote. i think that thoreau was glad to be alone in the woods. he must have had a healthy tolerance, if not appreciation, for solitude if he was willing to isolate himself in the woods for a couple of years.Re: Re: Solitude
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:25 AM
He notes only one brief moment when he feels lonely (and he does tell about it). But it passed quickly. For the most part, he always felt in the company of nature. And he wasn't necessarily all that isolated either--he just had the option of being alone more than he would have in town (he also had the option of having visitors, walking into town, etc.)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion
Alana Smalls, Sep 17, 2002 10:12 AM
What I think Walden is trying to say in the last chapter is don't restrain yourself from going to other places in the world. Walden recommends a change of air and SCENERY for the sick basically saying get out and explore the world. When he says, "Thank Heaven, here is not all the world" he's saying how boring it would be to stay at the same location your whole life. Go adventure the world. There's so much more to see than the one place you've been at for umpteen years. "The universe is wider than our views of it."Re: Conclusion
Caroline Macauley-Wise, Sep 17, 2002 11:25 AM
I think that Thoreau's message in the Conclusion is in the statement he makes, " I learned this, at least, by my experiment: that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours." So, as long as you are not hurting anyone, go for your dream and everything else will come together!Re: Conclusion
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:15 AM
I'm not sure he's necessarily recommending physical travel, but he is saying we should explore and not get stuck in even an interesting rut like this. [you do realize that Walden is the name of the pond, not the person, don't you?]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoreau's attraction
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:09 AM
Thoreau describes his attraction to the woods, "I can alert for the first signs of Spring" This image of season makes me think that Thoreau is dealing with seasons in a way that prepares him for change. Being there for the first signs of Spring is being there for the first signs of change. He is dealing with change and watching it happen before his eyes.Re: Thoreau's attraction
Jenise Perez, Sep 17, 2002 10:28 AM
I agree that Thoreau meant change by this line. I also believe that Spring represented a time of renewal where he could start all over again.renewal
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:30 AM
Yes, he certainly loves the renewal. But he loves, just as much, the hibernation of the winter which precedes and creates the spring.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden 5
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 10:08 AM
The most intriguing thing Thoreau writes comes at the beginning of Chapter eleven when he describes his occasional desire to revert to savagery in the woods. He writes that he holds this desire and the need to remain a spiritual being in no higher or lesser regard than one another. Does this mean Thoreau believes that one of natural parts of man is his more ravenous side?Re: Walden 5
chris terry, Sep 17, 2002 10:37 AM
thoreau definitely sees a connection between 'savagery' and heightened spirituality. in the first chapters that we read for last week, he talks about the righteousness of a simpler life, of a 'noble savage.' he is way nto the diea of a simpler life being a more fulfilling life, saying something along the lines of 'the richest man has nothing.' i can't remember the exact quote, and it's buried somewhere in the book, in the frst few pages of the first chapter that we read. anywa, he talks about monks and philosophers whse only real posessions were their powerful brains, and he holds these folks in high regard. ps - black sabbath rulesRe: Walden 5
chris terry, Sep 17, 2002 10:36 AM
thoreau definitely sees a connection between 'savagery' and heightened spirituality. in the first chapters that we read for last week, he talks about the righteousness of a simpler life, of a 'noble savage.' he is way nto the diea of a simpler life being a more fulfilling life, saying something along the lines of 'the richest man has nothing.' i can't remember the exact quote, and it's buried somewhere in the book, in the frst few pages of the first chapter that we read. anywa, he talks about monks and philosophers whse only real posessions were their powerful brains, and he holds these folks in high regard. ps - black sabbath rulesRe: Walden 5
chris terry, Sep 17, 2002 10:36 AM
thoreau definitely sees a connection between 'savagery' and heightened spirituality. in the first chapters that we read for last week, he talks about the righteousness of a simpler life, of a 'noble savage.' he is way nto the diea of a simpler life being a more fulfilling life, saying something along the lines of 'the richest man has nothing.' i can't remember the exact quote, and it's buried somewhere in the book, in the frst few pages of the first chapter that we read. anywa, he talks about monks and philosophers whse only real posessions were their powerful brains, and he holds these folks in high regard. ps - black sabbath rulesRe: Walden 5
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 10:10 AM
I think he means that man has a duality that he can either ignore or embrace one only.Re: Re: Walden 5
Kelly Scott, Sep 17, 2002 10:30 AM
I think Thoreau is saying that man has duality, and that we need to embrace and acknowledge both sides, the wild, and the good, because we can't exist with just one of these qualities, they work together.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neighbor of the Pond
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:04 AM
When the warmer days come, they who dwell near the river hear the ice crack at night with a startling whoop as loud as artillery, This is such an intimate description of the river, and those that dwell near it. It is as if Walden is describing hearing a neighbors argument through thin walls of an apartment. Those who dwell near the river have the privaledge of lying in bed on a cool night and listening to nature process its very exsistence, they have a familarity with the river that few experience.The cracking of the ice
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 10:07 AM
I found the significance of the ice to be something a little different. I feel that winter, to Thoreau, is symbolic of a religious purity...wholly infallible and pure. But spring comes along and reminds him (quite forcibly with the sound of the ice cracking) that humans are fallable and mortal beings. Nature is just as imperfect as we are.Re: Re: Neighbor of the Pond
Alana Smalls, Sep 17, 2002 10:22 AM
I never looked at it that way. I thought more he was just obssessed with the Walden pond. So when he went to his neighbors pond and cracked it, that was just to see where his pond stood and to see if his was better than his neighbors. But I guess it can mean religous purity if you look at it from your perspective.Re: Re: Neighbor of the Pond
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 10:09 AM
I think the opposite- He equates spring with rebirthRe: Re: Re: Re: Neighbor of the Pond
Melissa Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:21 AM
I find that these lines show this point. "You may have known your neighbor yesterday for a thief, a drunkard, or a sensualist, and merely pitied or despised him, and despaired of the world; but the sun shines bright and warm this first spring morning, recreating the world, and you meet him at some serene work, and see how it is exhausted and debauched veins expand with still joy and bless the new day, feel the spring influence with the innocence of infancy, and all his faults are forgotten."Re: Neighbor of the Pond
Caroline Macauley-Wise, Sep 17, 2002 11:16 AM
One of Thoreau's neighbor's, he mentions in Chapter 18 - Conclusion- "was a man...who lived in a hollow tree. His manners were truly regal." Thoreau mentions this after going to anothers neighbor's home and feeling that, "the hospitality was as cold as the ices." He wished that he had visited the man in the hollow tree than gone through the experience he did. I think that in this he shows that material things are not important, as he tries to tell us all the way through 'Walden'.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Industry
Drew Vass, Sep 17, 2002 10:04 AM
I have to admit, I have always been surprised by Thoreau’s personification and vivid descriptions of the train that runs along Walden. Right there amidst all the vivid descriptions of all the natural aspects of his surroundings, he begins to describe the train and I am expecting him to become very negative, and I begin searching for some hint of sarcasm, but it doesn’t seem to be there. “The whistle of the locomotive penetrates my woods summer and winter …” and then I am waiting for him to say something like &*#@% thing!! But he never does. Instead he says things like: “I watch the passage of the morning cars with the same feeling that I do the rising sun.” I find this very surprising, and again I was just waiting for him to turn it around and begin bashing industry and commercialism, but he doesn’t; in fact, he seems to have a sort of love affair with it all. I think that is very interesting and shows as surprising acceptance and admiration in Thoreau of man’s progress. He seems to embrace all of this in the same way that a John Boy Walton would dream of one day moving to the city to be a journalist.Re: Industry
Patrice Hollins, Sep 17, 2002 10:19 AM
I guess it is easy for him to find pleasure in something that he doesn't have to deal with all day long. This train coming through his little part of nature is probably a pleasant change from the sounds of owls, and bugs and frogs.Re: Industry
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 10:10 AM
I think by this late in the book, Thoreau has meditated enough to come to terms with technology. He respects that all of these things have to exist. Whether or not he will choose to coexist with them one day seems evident. This acceptance of the ordinary carries over to his acceptance (if not slight mockery) of the townspeople.Re: Industry
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 10:08 AM
It was a little out of character that he didn't criticize the railroad more than he did other than for its noise. Maybe because industrialism was still in its early stages and so he hadn't started to think about its negative effects???--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden 4
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 10:02 AM
Thoreau thinks Walden a kind of paradise not only for its beauty and small-scale majesty, buy also for the way in which it resembles a small eco-system where the everything works to affect everything else. Look at the ninth chapter where the water rises to take down the trees encroaching on Thoreau's house. The water had not risen that high in years, he writes, but rose to take out those trees.Your point is?
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:29 AM
How is that an eco-system? For one thing, his cabin was up a hill from the pond, and was definitely not affected by its rising. Also, when it rises and the trees die, that happens along the shore all along the pond, not just where he is.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
his indifference with the townspeople
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 10:00 AM
I found it interesting that Thoreau could describe the people with seemingly no real emotion either way. They are just there, gossiping, taking the most beaten paths, and living their day to day. He doesn't seem to particularly disrespect them, since he talks to them, goes to town often, and even listens to some of the gossip. He is just completely unaffected almost. They are there and they live their lives, and he lives his. It seems he had more of a problem with them in earlier chapters. However, he does call them prairie dogs, which I found to be a fun and humorous image.Re: his indifference with the townspeople
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 10:10 AM
I think he is just too caught up in living his own experiences to pay them much attention. From the reading I gather he didn't really have any close confidants or people he really kept in continous contact with. Partly owing to the fact that it was harder to communicate with people, no email, cell phones etc.His friends
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:32 AM
As a matter of fact, he did have a number of very close friends, many of whom came to see him and he went to see them, especially his family. But he wanted communication to be special, not just the ordinary chatter, and by making the meetings less frequent, he often found that, as we can see in "Visitors."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
poetry
Jon Mott, Sep 17, 2002 09:59 AM
"The very globe continually transcends and translates itself, and becomes winged in its orbit." This is a line of sublime beauty and could be interpretated variously. Here Thoreau views the earth as an organism, going through its own natural cycles in the progression of life.Re: poetry
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:56 AM
What is even more beautiful about this line is that with all that we are we are still an intrinsic part of the globe. Even the cycles of our bodies represent the same type of organism that goes through progressions and cycles. in a sense we are samller pieces of the greater earth. I think Thoreau realized this.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gives soul to the pond!
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 09:59 AM
all gone off with the fog, spirited away I loved the imagery in this line. I can see a thick misty fog that almost swoops down to lift the remaining ice from the surface of the water. It reminds me of what happens in the changing seasons of life, something changes and carries away a familiar reality.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part of Thoreau's Purpose for Going to Walden
Mary Newcomb, Sep 17, 2002 09:55 AM
I think that much of the reason Thoreau went to Walden was to further his ability to think outside of the box. When in society it is easy to get caught up with the flow of things and with the confining reasoning and thoughts of civilization--even while at Walden, civilization pervades nature in the form of the railroad. However, Walden offered Thoreau a place where he could truly commune with nature and lose some the the influence of society. It seems that Thoreau was practicing that which Emerson preached. He actually went out and lived alone in order to commune with nature and reach a part of his being that would otherwise be difficult to reach. I think that his chapter on Solitude reflects some of the acheivements in thought he reached through being at Walden. He even re-defines solitude--for he sees that he is never actully alone. He writes, commenting on some one else's supposition that he must feel lonely in the woods: "This whole earth which we inhabit is but a point in space. How far apart, think you, dwell the two most distant inhabitans of yonder star...Why should I feel lonely? is not our planet in the Milky Way?...What sort of space is that which separates a man from his fellow and makes him solitary? I have found that no exertion of the legs can being two minds much nearer to one another." I think that he does something amazing here with this re-definition of being alone. I think that being in Walden has allowed Thoreau to realize through experience and not simply thought alone the greater picture of things and how we relate to a larger whole. He not only realizes things in his mind, he is able to experience them at Walden.Re: Part of Thoreau's Purpose for Going to Walden
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 10:00 AM
I agree with you. I am just a little curious how he can spend so much time alone and be not just content but happy. If everyone were able to achieve this, would there be a need for other people at all?Re: Re: Part of Thoreau's Purpose for Going to Walden
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 10:16 AM
I think one of the points Thoreau tries to make is that each person needs to become more self reliant on themselves. And I remember there was section where he talked about this and I think he said something along the lines of you can be in a crowded room full of people and still be alone, meaning that living in and among people in a well populated area doesn't neccessarily mean you won't still be lonely. And living in a unpopulated area with no nearby neighbors doesn't mean your a lonely person.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
water
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 09:54 AM
Thoreau spends a great deal of time in these chapters discussing water. Walden pond itself is discussed thuroughly, mentioning not only the debth of the pond (100 feet but rumored to be bottomless) but also the color of the water. Thoreau tells the reader that the water can sometimes look green, sometimes blue, sometimes black, and then (when contained in a glass) can be crystal clear like the air around us. I also found the description of the body under the water intriguing. He calls it "pure white", which suggests a certain amount of religious purity. I feel that his determination to discover the debth of the pond is symbolic of discovering the extent of our own mortality. It seems that this infinity he seeks to prove false is that of an infinite existance. Lastly, the fact that he spends so much time observing the pond when it is frozen over is also symbolic. The ice is white, much like the described alibaster white of a bather's body underneath the surface. I feel this reference is again religious, having to do with heaven and the eternity suggested after we die.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thirst for Solitude
Drew Vass, Sep 17, 2002 09:52 AM
Walden is one of those special books that can be read again and again, each time revealing some small aspect of itself to the reader. It isn’t necessary to sit down and read it from cover to cover to gain something from it (thank goodness for people like me) and I can honestly say that every time I have read even a small passage, I have found some minute detail that just floors me. Thoreau burries little philisohpical statements and paragraphs here and there, and it seems much like these were written as completely separate works and then later incorporated; like he was writing and then in a flash went to dig up that passage about ____ that he had written some time ago and stored in his desk drawer; or as though he got out a list of epiphanies arrived at while floating on the pond and then stuck them here and there. As I was reading chapter five, Solitude, I came across a Thoreau moment that I really enjoyed. Although it is arguable to what degree he really spent his time on Walden in solitude, reading this book reveals passage after passage in which he is spilling out his excitement in being alone with nature and one can really sense, not only the joy he found in these moments, but true enlightenment. Within this chapter, he is contemplating solitude, space, distance and social interaction, when he makes clear that solitude can be found in the busiest of places. He describes the preoccupation of the farmer at one point, explaining that he can’t stand to be alone in the evenings, but must be surrounded by people, or at least within view. He explains clearly that solitude is something that you thirst for when you are living in and striving to preserve a state of consciousness in which you are always aware, awake and meditating. Thoreau explains all of this in such a way that can easily be compared to modern times. It can be disgusting, the way we become consumed with having to be kept company by someone, something, some noise, at every given point in the day. The solitude that Thoreau describes isn’t one that a person prescribes them self as a prescription for enlightenment, but rather is something they thirst for when living in a state in which, as Thoreau describes it, their genius is always present. On the flip side of this condition a person can’t stand to let a minute pass without filling it with radio, tv, the internet, or a phone call.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden 3
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 09:52 AM
The more one reads this Walden stuff the more it comes to seem as though Thoreau is idealizing his surroundings too much. It's obvious he's idealized them to a degree the entire time but the further it goes along and the one more reads, it begins to suffer from how great everything seems to be in this shack in the woods Thoreau calls Paradise.Re: Walden 3
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 10:26 AM
I don't think he is idealizing too much. I think he is meditating on just how perfect you COULD see things if you really try. I think he overextends his points and metaphors on purpose in an effort to get the average man (whom he considers himself above) to understand his points. He relates all points of nature to something else, and then sets up another deeper meaning on top of that. This takes time.Re: Re: Walden 3
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 10:01 AM
I do agree it seems to be overkill and like a fanatical obsession. I thought about that myself and the only justification I could come up with was that Thoreau is doing this to draw attention and make people think about things they wouldn't normally think about.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The naturalist
Jon Mott, Sep 17, 2002 09:51 AM
"The day is an epitome of the year. The night is the winter, the morning and evening are the spring and fall, and the noon is the summer." In the chapters titled Spring, Thoreau reveals himself as a true naturalist, synchronistic with the rhythms of the environment. The weather, its tempetures and the subsequent responses of the pond are all cataloged. Thoreau's observations are inherently poetic, describing without embellishment the unfolding of a sylvan spring before his eyes. He notes, "The very globe continually transcends and translates itself, and becomes winged in its orbit." Such revelations would not occur to one who hasn't fully immersed in nature for a duration of time. I wonder how easy it was for Thoreau to return to society? Surely, he had a greater understanding of himself and mankind that others would not so easily grasp.Re: The naturalist
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:53 AM
You could say that he never "left society" (he went into town frequently) and at the same time, that he never returned, for his experiences with nature became more and more intense through his life, especially as he wrote about them.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Facts about Ponds
Alana Smalls, Sep 17, 2002 09:51 AM
As I was reading chapter 17, I had to stop and think is this a novel or an encylopedia. It sounded more like Walden was giving me informational facts about ponds and its freezing temperatures instead of reading a novel that flows and actually sounds like a novel. Does anyone agree on that?Re: Facts about Ponds
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 10:03 AM
I think Thoreau himself found the description (which admittedly was quite thurough) to be important to his message. He found a lot of symbolism in the pond, and related the colors and size and debth to many aspects of our own lives.Re: Facts about Ponds
jon mott, Sep 17, 2002 09:56 AM
I think the empirical observations Thoreau combines with his subjective ruminations is the very essence of Walden and its nature chapters. His was a time when science was helping to explain the natural phenomena of the earth, and without those acute recordings of tempeture and proportionate sizes, his time at Walden wouldn't have been as profound.Re: Facts about Ponds
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 09:54 AM
I found it tedious. Perhaps he thought the only way to do justice to his respect for nature and walden was to record every detail he carefully observed--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden 2
Jeremiah Winters, Sep 17, 2002 09:46 AM
Writing about the change of the seasons Thoreau makes it all seem planned out as if a part of some grand effort. He also takes great pains to write about and appreciate evert aspect of the change in seasons and what accompanies them.Re: Walden 2
jon mott, Sep 17, 2002 10:09 AM
I think he is indeed alluding to a planned and grand effort, but doesn't comment on who the actuator of this "effort" is. His attention to detail gives us insight to the vast spectrum of change that occurs in nature, and leaves it to us to interpret our own individual ideas as to how it has all come about. For Thoreau, I think it's safe to say that Nature herself, is his diety.Re: Walden 2
Kelly Scott, Sep 17, 2002 09:54 AM
I'm thinking maybe he sees the seasons as how we should live our lives. Always changing, and yet coming back to some areas we love, and re-experiencing them. That our lives represent a cycle, just as the seasons do.Re: Walden 2
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 09:48 AM
He compares the spring and change to man and his relationship with GOd, I think...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nature
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 09:44 AM
I understood that Thoreau examined his surroundings with great awe and detail. The equating of spring with rebirth and the creation processes, etc. What I wasn't sure about was his sounds chapter and the chapter about the different lakes. Do the lakes symbolize something? Are each of the sounds to be understood literally, with appreciation for what makes them, or are they to make the reader think of different aspects of life? I didn't get it.Re: nature
Jennifer Meredith , Sep 17, 2002 09:48 AM
I think Thoreau wants you to take them as you take them. If you see symobolic meanings in them, then good but if not thats okay too. I think he realizes that each person sees things differently and brings different views to each thing they see.Re: Re: nature and symbolism
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:52 AM
Jennifer, I think you've really got something here. There's no simple one-to-one symbolization process going on here. He gives you the details and suggests possible meanings, especially for the pond ("the earth's eye," for example), but he allows you to develop different kinds of symbolic resonances, within some limits, from those suggestions.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spring
Alana Smalls, Sep 17, 2002 09:35 AM
In the Spring chapter Walden is talking about the freezing of the ponds. It happens to be April when this is going on. Doesn't it usually start to get warm in April enabling any ponds to be freezing or is it still cold enough for ponds to freeze?Re: Spring
Megan McManus, Sep 17, 2002 09:49 AM
I liked Thoreau's childlike enthusiasm for the comming of spring. His words choices and poetic language often reflected this mood. For example his repetetive used of the word "phenomena"; also, the reader can definitely see his excitement within his descriptions, "The first sparrow of spring! The year beginning with the younger hope that ever!" and "The grass flames up on the hillsides like a spring fire...It grows as steadily as the rill oozes out of the ground." Thoreau seems to be overwhelmed with joy that spring is comming. His emotion can especially be seen in his word choices like "flames up" and "oozes". He gives special detail to springs imagery in hopes that the reader will also fully appreciate the beauty of spring.Thoreau's Childlikeness
Mary Newcomb, Sep 17, 2002 10:02 AM
I think Thoreau's excitement about Spring and about nature in general is shown through many of his descriptions which to me, seem, like you noticed, childlike. I noticed as I read through the peice that he would point out specific elements of nature and describe them with childlike wonder. He is able to do this by being at Walden and not in the midst of society. Children, although in society are not influenced with the cares and burdens of society like adults are. I think that Thoreau's experiences at Walden are childlike, in part because he is able to detach himself from the cares of civilized society and receive nautre as a child receives it.Re: Spring weather in MASS
Ann, Sep 17, 2002 09:38 AM
The world was going through a kind of "mini-ice age" in the 19th century. The James used to freeze across and break up, causing real problems, in the winter, so you can imagine how cold MASS was. If you read his journals, you'll see that spring didn't really come until May there and then.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walden
Jeremiah Wintersj, Sep 17, 2002 09:31 AM
At the beginning of chapter 4 Thoreau describes Walden. He makes it seem dream-like, almost as secluded a garden as Eden.Re: Walden and eden?
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:54 AM
What makes it "Edenic"? There's no Eve? Is it because he seems to be so receptive? Was there a railroad running through Eden?Re: Walden
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 09:47 AM
I guess to him it is his eden- untapped by the commercial exploits of man (only the railroad goes thru)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why Thoreau left the woods
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 09:30 AM
In the end Thoreau decided to leave the woods because he had been there long enough for it to become too much of a habit for him. He felt it was time to move on. "I left the woods for as good a reason as I went there. Perhaps it seemed to me that I had several more lives to live, and could not spare any more time for that one." Too often we get stuck in a rut because something is familiar too us and stay in one place longer than we should. Thoreau is urging his readers to experience many things in life and to not spend too much time doing only one thing. In order to experience life fully one should try many things.Re: Why Thoreau left the woods
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:28 AM
I agree, and I believe that he learned this lesson at the pond while watching the many changing seasons, which may have come tho represent the changing seasons of life. He realized that nature would continue to change and so must he.Re: Why Thoreau left the woods
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:39 AM
Good point! But we must remember that he spent the next 8 years after leaving writing and rewriting WALDEN, so in an important way, he was still there, probably for the rest of his life. Do you think he also found what he was looking for when he went?Re: Re: Why Thoreau left the woods
jon mott, Sep 17, 2002 10:17 AM
"Our village life would stagnate if it were not for the unexplored forests and meadows which surround it. We need the tonic of wildness." I think this passage describes his reasons for leaving and returning to live in the populus. Walden was an extended therapy for Thoreau, in which he was able to be introspective and naturalistic without interruption and without assuming the life of a hermit. Man can only life so long in solitarity before he becomes lonely and wants company...or before he becomes a loon.Re: Re: Why Thoreau left the woods
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 09:44 AM
I think he did find what he was looking for. The fact that he spent so much time revising and working on Walden show how much that time spent there ment to him and that he must have felt that he learned something valuable there to impart to readers or he wouldn't have spent so much time perfecting it.Re: Why Thoreau left the woods
Kelly Scott, Sep 17, 2002 09:39 AM
I wonder if Thoreau left Walden reluctantly, I have a feeling he did. But I think it was amzing that he forced himself to continue on, even though he probably was in a comfortable routine, and he loved the place. I also think Thoreau left because he never wanted to become too comfortable, to where he would begin to take the place for granted, and not always recognize the beauty and specialness of Walden.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Significance of Visitors
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 09:23 AM
In Chapter Six I found it very interesting how he referred to his communion with nature and a form of divine power by referring to them in the form of people. THhoreau calls nature an "elderly dame" and the divine power an "old settler". I think its the chance for Thoreau to use another pun for his audience. I don't think most people would have picked up on it if it wasn't for the study notes. Thoreau seems to really enjoy writing about things that can be interpreted in a number of different ways.Re: Significance of Visitors
Ann K Voorhies, Sep 17, 2002 10:05 AM
it seems that his whole environment around him took turns in keeping him company, as well as keeping him full of things to write about. The animals were also very important in his meditations, especially the ants and their battling. It seems he concerned himself a great deal with the weak battling the strong.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds of the railroad
Megan McManus, Sep 17, 2002 09:07 AM
A predominant sound in Thoreau's chapter "Sounds" is ironically the railroad, which he probably heard as often and consistent as any natural sound in Walden. He wrote, "The whistle of the locomotive penetrates my woods summer and winter." Here Thoreau shows the reader how the sound of the railroad is a constant in Walden Pond. He did not write that the sound "visited" my woods, rather he chooses the word "penetrates" to show how significant it was. Thoreau has mixed feelings about the train's involvement in his natural scene. He says, "I have been astonished at the miracles it has wrought...We live the steadier for it." He shows a great admiration for the workers on the train, the effects the train has had on people (punctuality), and the magnificence of the train itself. However, he goes on to say, "I will not have my eyes put out and my ears spoiled by its smoke and steam and hissing." Here he is saying that although he respects the great invention, he also sees it as something man-made. Therefore it does not compare to the beauty he finds in nature.Re: Sounds of the railroad
Ann , Sep 17, 2002 09:34 AM
You're certainly right about his mixed feelings about the railroad, and with good reason. It was a constant reminder that his world was changing, and a violator of his solitude (I like that you picked up on the word "penetrate"). He loved to travel, and sometimes took the train, but he probably saw the downside of this mechanical monster more than anyone else he knew.Re: Re: Sounds of the railroad
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 09:38 AM
"The air is full of invisible bolts. Every path but your own is the path of fate. Keep on your own track, then." I really loved this quote. Thoreau is comparing the railroad to bolts and is admonishing his readers to follow their own track in life.Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds of the railroad
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 09:52 AM
I don't think he hates the railroad neccessarily. He's kind of torn about at the same time that he knows its helpful. It has also sort of have become this institution by which people set their clocks by, etc. and it can sometimes be a nuisance for him with its making noise and disrupting nature. He just uses the opportunity I think when he is talking about the railroad to make a metaphor out of it by admonishing his readers to be orginal and follow their own path in life. Which Thoreau seems to do often.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Day in Relation to the Year and its Seasons
Mary Newcomb, Sep 17, 2002 07:52 AM
Concerning Thoreau's connections and symbolism of the seasons, I thought this quote was pertinent and indicative of a main theme of Thoreau's: "The phenomena of the year take place every day in a pond on a small scale. Every morning, generally speaking, the shallow water is being warmed more rapidly than the deep, though it may not be made so warm after all, and every evening it is being cooled more rapidly until the morning. The day is an epitome of the year. The night is the winter, the morning and evening are the spring and fall, and the noon is the summer." Thoreau sees connections between a small unit of a day to the larger unit in which that day exists--the year and its seasons. I feel like this is a main these in this work, as Thoreau relates the small to the large throughout. However, it seems that Thoreau does not classify things into small or large, in terms of importance. Rather, all things seem equally important and significant in terms of understanding our world and ourselves.Re: The Day in Relation to the Year and its Seasons
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 09:34 AM
I agree with you. As a matter of fact, perhaps Thoreau makes the connections between large and small things just to make the point that all are equally important. For example the ant battle where he drew comparisons between it being as important to the ants as the war for independence was for us.Re: Re: The Day in Relation to the Year and its Seasons
Kia Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:42 AM
I agree Thoreau sheds a new light on nature in a way that places value on things we would find insignificant. For example the cracking of the ice on a river or the changes on a river in one day.Re: The Day in Relation to the Year and its Seasons
Jennifer Cosby, Sep 17, 2002 09:33 AM
That's exactly what I got out of that and I just thought it was one of the strongest points he makes. Especially when he said that 'the day is the epitome of the year."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Small things
Mary Newcomb, Sep 17, 2002 07:39 AM
I think that Thoreau sees parallels between nature and human life and experiences. These relations and likenesses he finds in all things--from an ant-battle to the pond itself to the seasons and the days. When he speaks of the spring and winter at the pond, he places the same importance or emphasis on explicating the minute details of nature, as he does with everything else he writes, including his philosophies or ideas concerning nature and life. I think that he does this, as he feels that his ideas/feelings and the occurrences in nature are one, in a sense. Thoreau deals with the smallest occurrences in nature with the greatest care. He writes about the owl and the specific way it hoots. He goes on to describe how the hoot sounds like words to him. In "Sounds" he writes of the mournful sound of the owl: "Oh-o-o-o-o that I never had been bor-r-r-r-n! sighs one on this side of the pond..." Then later in "Winter Animals," Thoreau writes of the owl, which, upon hearing a goose squawk and fly into the area, responded back to the goose "as if determined to expose and disgrace this intruder from Hudson's Bay by exhibiting a greater compass and volume of voice in a native, and boo-hoo him out of Concord horizon.” Thoreau attributes all nature and the creatures and their actions human qualities; for, he identifies with these things. He places a personality and thoughts onto the owl and onto the pond and even the times of day. Speaking of the air, Thoreau, in “Higher Laws” writes, “Of all ebriosity, who does not prefer to be intoxicated by the air he breathes?” He gives the air a quality of the ability to intoxicate. In another passage, he writes of the morning air as drinkable, as he laments those who ruin it with coffee. Not only is he giving attributes to the air, but also the time of day. I think that the interconnectedness Thoreau sees between himself, as a part of nature, and nature, as a whole and her individual elements allow for him to see what some might view as insignificant as significant. The great detail and time he gives to each element he observes is due to the relevance he sees in them, as they reflect and denoted truths about himself, humanity and life.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Kelly Scott, Sep 16, 2002 11:33 PM
"Fishermen, hunters, woodchoppers, and others, spending their lives in the fields and woods, in a peculiar sense a part of Nature themselves, are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation. She is not afraid to exhibit herself to them. " Thoreau seems to be expressing the idea that people who devote endless hours to being in nature, will naturally have a closer tie to nature, and will get to see the regular habits of nature. I think a good comparison would be marriage vs. dating. When you are dating, you don't get to see the person entirely, they allow you to see what they want you to see. But marriage leaves much less to the imagination. You see the other person when they are at their best and worst, and there is nothing to hide. I think that is what Thoreau is saying about hunting and fishing, it's kind of like a marriage between man/woman and nature.Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Melissa Robinson, Sep 17, 2002 10:40 AM
I agree that people that are used to dealing with nature probably have a closer tie because they know more about it than say a poet or philosopher who isn't out there.Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Ann, Sep 17, 2002 09:36 AM
That's a novel comparison, and I suspect it has limits (especially if you want to speak of divorce). But certainly the hunter develops an intimacy with the prey that he stalks, even the ability to "think like a deer" etc. and we often forget that. On the other hand, Thoreau thinks that the best hunters "grow out of it," especially if they don't need it for food.Re: Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Kelly Scott, Sep 17, 2002 09:50 AM
The idea that the best hunters "grow out of it" does seems to reflect what Thoreau writes about other things as well. A lot of what I get out of it, is that we should never commit to something forever, we should make changes and experience new things. Or if we do commit to something forever, like marriage, we should strive to not become too routine. Kind of like stopping on a high note, and moving on to something else, before we become too tied down and unappreciative of where we are , or what we do. So I guess hunters grow out of it, because they are satisfied with their experience, and content to move on.Re: Re: Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Sarayba, Sep 17, 2002 09:52 AM
I wasn't sure what he meant by that. The essentials of life must be taken to live. If hunting is something that one grows out of, how do we live- one could say that to pick a vegetable or to fish is a form of hunting.Re: Re: Re: Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Kelly Scott, Sep 17, 2002 09:58 AM
I think that was mainly for people who hunted for sport, who didn't need the food, but I think even if you hunt out of nessecity, it can become old. Maybe it becomes more about survival the older you get, and less about the thrill of the hunt, becoming a man, or whatever.Re: Re: Re: Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Michelle Yancey, Sep 17, 2002 09:58 AM
I think he does agree about the fish part being hunting. I think it goes back to where he is talking about animal food (like meat of birds, etc.) being something which is essentially messy to cook and prepare. Thoreau then goes on to argue that it doesn't even neccessarily take care of your hunger. He points out that a little bit of bread and potatoes fed his hunger and was much cleaner to prepare. Maybe he is advocating a vegetarian diet here??vegetarian
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 10:34 AM
As a rule, he was a vegetarian--it was cheaper, cleaner, and served him just fine. At least he didn't go to the extremes of Bronson Alcott, neighbor and friend, who lived on a "spiritual diet"--crackers made of graham flour, fruits, and nothing that had been "corrupted" by contact with the earth (like potatoes).Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Kelly Scott, Sep 17, 2002 10:03 AM
Since he says to live simply, maybe he is advocating vegetarianism. It would have been a whole lot easier to go dig up a potato and wash it off, that to kill an animal and deal with that, Plus, if you were hungry, you could eat in a matter of minutes, kind of like nature's fast foodRe: Re: Re: Hunting,fishing-Higher Laws
Megan McManus, Sep 17, 2002 10:00 AM
I was a bit surprised with Thoreau's opinion about young boys hunting, although I guess it makes some sense, especially for that time. He views the boy who does not know how to hunt as his education having been neclected. Thoreau sees a boy who is being introduced to hunting as being introduced to nature, which is the important part. Once the boy grows older he will most likely realize there are better things to do than hunt and he will then "leave the gun and fish-pole behind."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Higher Laws-good vs. wild
Kelly Scott, Sep 16, 2002 11:14 PM
"I found in myself, and still find, an instinct toward a higher, or, as it is named, spiritual life, as do most men, and another toward a primitive rank and savage one, and I reverence them both. I love the wild not less than the good." I think these are very important lines. Thoreau is classifying wild as primitive and savage, and good as spirituality. I wonder if this is Thoreau's idea, or if he is describing how society views good and wild? Also, we usually think of good and evil as going together, so is it possible that wild is being used here as another term for evil? Not that Thoreau thinks that, but maybe this is how other people, or society thinks of wildness. Just a thought.Re: Higher Laws-good vs. wild
Drew Vass, Sep 17, 2002 10:13 AM
It is interesting that he chooses to use the words "wild" and "good". It seems to me that he is not so much describing good and evil, as much as he is referring to what most would probably state as "flesh" and "spirit." I'm not certain why he would choose "wild" and "good really; unless his concept of spirit represents a higher for of consciousness, which would be consdered a superior component, greater than the flesh. Hard to say.Re: Higher Laws-good vs. wild
Ann Woodlief, Sep 17, 2002 09:59 AM
You-re right--it's interesting that he should contrast the two here. As we will see in "Walking," for him the "spiritual" and the "wild" are really quite synonymous, not contrasted at all. Maybe you're right--"savage" wildness is more a construct of other people. Note that he goes on to talk about being tempted to "eat a woodchuck wild." He's also probably referring indirectly to sex as among those "animal instincts" he is struggling with (as opposed to purity). His division of the animal and the spiritual here, especially as they are expressed within the human being, IS strange, although it is quite usual for most people's thinking. It just shows that he had just as much difficulty as most of us in reconciling the physical and spiritual sides of himself. But through his relationship with a wild nature, he DID find access to his spiritual self. It's that old dualism versus the unified conflict. He wants union, desperately, but he also sees conflict within himself. He finds it hard to be spiritual when he is attending to his "animal" needs. Yet he sees the spiritual through his relationship with the physical aspects of nature, even the animal.Re: Re: Higher Laws-good vs. wild
Drew Vass, Sep 17, 2002 10:49 AM
In reading your reply, I was reflecting on a statement someone made in a previous discussion - describing how difficult it is to maintain one’s personal, creative endeavors, abiding by their “calling” in life, while trying to make a living.